An M1 carbine design adapted to a rimless .357 Magnum round would be pretty neat but I can't see there being a big market for it today. was included in that party is a mystery, as it had no Winchester counterpart. The competition in this category is just as close as ballistics, but right now, better availability gives the edge to the .350 Legend. Ruger briefly chambered the M77 rifle in .35 Whelen. 351 winchester for sale and auction. The carbine and cartridge were not intended to serve as a primary infantry weapon, nor was it comparable to more powerful intermediate cartridges later developed for assault rifles. Re: Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351, Powered by UBB.threads PHP Forum Software 7.7.5. There have been many others, such as the .35-30 Maynard (both in the 1865 and the 1882 versions) and .35-40 Maynard. from a 20-inch barrel. I spent it all on guns and ammo. However, as a bottleneck cartridge, the .30-30 has a slight advantage at longer ranges. 95% BARRELS, 85% RECEIVER AND N WINCHESTER 1400 20GA 28 MOD. 26" barrels with F A near flawless vintage Voere Nato Imperial control round feed Mauser bolt action made in Austria. The .30 Carbine's relatively straight case and round nose bullet have misled some to believe it was designed for . SMOOTH GRAY METAL WITH GOOD WOOD AND A DECENT BORE. 110 grain .30 Carbine fired from the M-1: Remington Green/White: 1976 fps. Townsend Whelen wrote back 100 years ago that the 32 WSL and 35 WSL were good deer cartridges for their ranges. Prices have skyrocketed on the Models 05, 07, 10. This 170-grain .30-30, for instance, drops 7.7 inches at 200 yards and 26.6 inches at 300 yards. In both cases, the recoil is the result of the action types used on these early autoloaders. Smooth handsome gun with fine wood to metal fit and overall light handling marks, wi WINCHESTER 1910 401. and a 250-grain Partition load with a muzzle velocity of 2550 f.p.s. Does anyone know if any gunsmith ever converted a 30 Carbine to 32 WSL? & scope has rust alon WINCHESTER 21 12GA 30 F/M. round barrel worn finish and cracked butt plate please view pictures for condition. I did read a article that said in the 1920s, the military tried experimented using a Remington model 1908 in 25 Remington and soldiers liked shooting it as compared to bolt action 30-06. We offer rifle ammo in a number of calibers including 223 REMINGTON, 30 CARBINE, 300 WIN MAG, 307 WIN, 308 WIN, 375 WINCHESTER, 5.45 X 39MM, 7X64MM and more. Know those parts well. As such, the following is for comparative information purposes only and should not be used to make precise predictions of the trajectory, performance, or true ballistics of any particular .30 M1 Carbine or .30-30 Winchester rounds for hunting, target shooting, plinking, or any other usage. ", Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II. You cant compare it to todays AR 15s. has been offered in just about every rifle action type ever conceived and a few handguns. But whats good for military purposes isnt always ideal for the deer blind. Save your pennies and hold out for the M1 Carbine then save your pennies and start stocking away ammo and magazines. Seller: cma959. This gun is in excellent condition in its orignal hardcase with keys. and .32 Rem. In most Caliber Battles, one cartridge clearly offers more power and velocity across a range of loads and bullet weights. Feel free to take a look below at our bulk rifle ammunition for sale, including hunting and training rounds in the the popular calibers. In 1968 the 600 Magnum was replaced by the Model 660 Magnum, which featured a 20-inch barrel, but it was never a big seller, and Remington dropped the rifles. I'm kind of surprised the .351 wasn't made originally to use .357 bullets, since that bore size had already been established by that point. The US .30 cal M1 Carbine is one of the most important developments in the personal defense weapon story, being one of the very first* intermediate calibers to be adopted as standard issue by a nation, and arguably the first purpose-designed PDW caliber in history. Nosler M21 Rifle Review: Read Before Buying! A failed product is often said to be ahead of its time, which is usually just a polite way of saying nobody wanted to buy it. Language links are at the top of the page across from the title. And with Winchester, Ruger, Mossberg and other companies making bolt action rifle in 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster, maybe they could make a run of rifles in 351 WSL and 401 WSL too., with 5 and 10 round magazines. If youd like to read some of the other posts my father has written for this blog, visit the links below: The .219 Zipper: A Good Cartridge That Didnt Quite Pan Out, One Mans Attempt At Explaining Hunting To Non-Hunters, 405 Winchester: Roosevelts Medicine Gun For Lions. Military snipers wont be adopting either cartridge any time soon, but both enjoy a dedicated following of hunters who appreciate a medium-power option that can get the job done out to 250 yards. Note: some of the links below are affiliate links. and .32 Rem. He killed a large 4x4 buck that day. Released in 2019, the Legend was designed for use in states that restrict deer hunters to straight-wall cartridges and was billed as the fastest such cartridge currently in production. Folks tend to duck when they hear the slide action put into play!! with a similar 180-grain bullet. The .401 WSL fired a 200 grain .406caliber soft point bullet at 2,140 feet per second for a walloping 2,034 ft-lbs of energy. Due in large part to the limited utility of those cartridge,the Model 1905 was not a major commercial success. As illustrated in the chart, .243 Winchester rounds - on average - achieve a velocity of about 3180 feet per second (fps) while .30 M1 Carbine rounds travel at a velocity of 1990 fps. The .35 Rem. while finding .30 carbine ammo can be a challenge at times, finding adequate quantities of .351 SL would seem an impossible task. One way to think about this is as such: a foot-pound is a unit of energy equal to the amount of energy required to raise a weight of one pound a distance of one foot. [4] When compared to other medium bore rounds, the .351 SL is closer in power to the .35 Remington (200 grain .358 bullet at 1,950 to 2,000 fps from a 20-inch barrel) than it is to the .357 Magnum carbine (158 grain bullet at about 1,800 fps). Even though Winchester developed a round suitable for straight blowback actions, the rifle they eventually submitted designed by William Roemer and Fred Humeston, and based on the work done by convict David Marshall Williams was a gas-operated, locked breech design. The weapon was originally issued with a 15-round detachable magazine. Rifle Carbines are available in 40 S&W, and some use it to hunt deer and wild hogs, but even the 32 WSL and 35 WSL beat it in ballistics. It shoots well and is light and easy to carry while hunting. offered the performance level of the .358 Win. Winchester Model 74 semi auto .22 short. At 400 yds., the .358 Norma impacts 3.1 inches lower than the .300 Win. Probably over half the Model 1907 and 1910 rifles Ive examined over the years have a cracked forearm. Therefore, the M1 carbine is significantly less powerful than the M1 Garand. 7677 Winchester Model 94AE, 30-30, NRA limited to 500, engraved Deer on receiver Adjustable rear s Winchester - Model 70, Target Model, .243 Winchester. Where carbine fire had proven killing effect, approximately 95 percent of the time the target was dropped at less than 50 yards. Norma offers factory ammunition, E.R. That suggests the difference, at least in part, is due to the bullet. Other articles said reloaders would resize 41 Magnum bullets (.410), down to .406 to use in the 401 WSL. Why the public abandoned it so quickly is a mystery to me. Its often thought that if they had it would have gained popularity over the .338 Win. M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351. Its not a long-range powerhouse by any means, but it can be loaded with more aerodynamic .30-caliber bullets that offer higher ballistic coefficients (BC). This means I will earn a small commission (at no extra cost to you) if you make a purchase. Its too bad that no other companies picked up the 32 WSL, 35 WSL, 351WSL and 401 WSL . An experimental Thompson submachine gun was also made to fire .351 SL in 1919 but was never produced commercially. In 1944, Smith & Wesson developed a hand-ejector revolver to fire .30 Carbine. This is an Oviedo 1916 Spanish mauser chambered in .308 Winchester. The .351 SL proved popular with police and security forces as the only chambering available in the model 1907, and was used by France in both world wars. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. [9], The popularity of the M1 carbine for collecting, sporting, and re-enactment use has resulted in continued civilian popularity of the .30 Carbine cartridge. The .38 Smith & Wesson Special, designed in 1898, rocked the handgun realm with its ballistic performance making it a cartridge for the history books. These are a fun gun to have , shoot and collect. and .35 Rem., it was an excellent woods rifle for hunting whitetails. Jim in Idaho #7914589 07/19/13. As commercially successful as the Winchester Model 1907 and the .351 Winchester Self-Loading were, Winchester was still not quite satisfied. Access the newest seasons of MeatEater, save content, and join in discussions with the Crew and others in the MeatEater community. . He can be reached via email at [emailprotected], being one of the very first* intermediate calibers. features a Weaver K 2.5 scope. Unfortunately for Winchester, the Model 10 was not a good seller and the company only produced about 20,000 produced before dropping it from production in 1936. All Types (1000+) *I have mentioned before that it is in fact theItalians who claimed the prize of first intermediate caliber to be adopted as standard issue, with their long but still very much intermediate 7.35x51mm round. Sell your 351 winchester for FREE today on GunsAmerica! Common types used by the military with the carbine include: The .30 Carbine was the basis for Melvin M. Johnson's .22 Spitfire (5.7x33mm), necking the .30 Carbine's case down to a .22 caliber bullet. [6], A number of handguns have been chambered for .30 Carbine ammunition. Its a similar story at other online outlets. The .223's 200 yard energy is given as 603 ft. The record contains a few examples of carbine-aimed fire felling an enemy soldier at this distance or perhaps a little more. Moderate, safe, bland and predictable. By experience, they would come to handle it semiautomatically, but it took prolonged battle hardening to bring about this adjustment in the human equation. The .358 has 24 percent more energy at the muzzle than the .300 Win. In a now-famous story, Roy Weatherby launched his wildcatting career after he lost a wounded deer on his first hunt in 1942. Show Only Non-Guns. 94 1946 excellent condition. Very well cared for rifle, there is a barely noticable very small chip in the stock .Click for more info. Upon its release, the Legend was marketed as a light-recoiling cartridge, and the .30-30 is also well-known as a good option for the recoil-sensitive. Thats a question I just dont understand. Heres how the cartridges compare, pricewise. can drive the same weight bullet a bit faster. Indeed, Winchester used the .32 Self Loading as the basis for development of the .30 Carbine cartridge in the early 1940s. They are still around, although finding a pristine example will be tough. It went through 1,232 rounds without incident. The .35 Win., .35 Newton and .350 Griffin & Howe Mag. Federal does not market any of their .350 Legend options as elk cartridges. . This ammunition is often loaded to lower velocities in consideration of older firearms which have not been properly maintained, and large differences are seen over the chronograph relative to vintage .351 SL ammunition. Each round was a straight-walled, semi-rimmed cartridge firing a round-nosed bullet at modest pressure, just like the .30 Carbine. all were more powerful-and may have been excellent hunting cartridges-but they are gone; rejected by the shooting public and banished to the junk heap of obsolescence. in the Big Bore Model 94. The 357 Magnum fired a 158 gr SP at 1240 fps. These cartridges stack up so closely from a ballistics standpoint that neither can claim to hit harder than the other. Every competition has a winner, but the truth is, youre unlikely to notice much difference from the whitetail stand. The .30-30 Winchester and .35 Remington won't break any speed recordsthere's no doubt about that. was designed for the American market, but sadly no American riflemaker ever chambered the cartridge in a cataloged gun. is a wonderful cartridge, but nobody buys them. I have used this cartridge on moose with excellent results. At the same time though, the Remington Model 8 also kicks a lot more than you would expect considering the rather mild calibers they were chambered for. Having owned several different rifles chambered in .351 WSL and .401 WSL over the years, I can attest to the fact that they are quite good at what they were designed to do: cleanly take North American deer and black bear size game when hunting in close cover where quick shots might be called for. Winchester also produced a load firing a 250 grain bullet at 1,870 feet per second (1,942 ft-lbs of energy). 200-grain bullet to almost 2500 f.p.s. That version is in some dispute, with evidence that Whelen himself developed the cartridge or at least worked with Howe on its development. EARLY GUN SERIAL NUMBER 194. That being said,some good did come out of the money and time spent on the development of the Model 1905 and the accompanying cartridges that would help the company in the future. But in 2003 Remington decided to attempt a resurrection. . Lots of people seem to enjoy beating their head against a wall. and is a good cartridge for hunting the thick woods for deer, hogs, black bear or even elk. Do not take the 1907 apart. The .350 wins that power matchup, but this 170-grain .30-30 option offers 1,827 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle while this heavier, 180-grain .350 Legend only produces 1,762 ft.-lbs. Ive repaired several successfully. Most used hard and put away wet. With these requirements in hand, Winchester's Edwin Pugsley chose to design the cartridge with a .30 caliber, 100120 grain bullet at a velocity of 2,000 feet per second (610m/s). Other firms and individual designers submitted several carbine designs, but most prototypes were either unreliable or grossly off the target weight of five pounds. The M2 carbine was introduced late in World War II with a selective-fire switch allowing optional fully automatic fire at a rather high rate (850900 rpm) and a 30-round magazine. Remington currently lists a Model 7 rifle with a 20-inch barrel; todays version of the 600 in .350 Rem. from my E.R. The Taurus Raging Thirty and AMT AutoMag III were also offered in .30 Carbine.[10]. The 35 WSL fired a 180 gr SP at 1390 fps, this duplicated the 38-40 ballistics. Probably well over half of the production for the last ten years went to police organizations in the United States. Sorry, there are no results in your area. . In the years since, the .35 Rem. [1], The 835mm cartridge of the Ribeyrolles M1918 was based on the .351 SL. The loud blast is the most oft-mentioned characteristic of the .30 Carbine cartridge when fired in a handgun.[10]. They shot lever actions and bolt actions, and probably didnt understand semi auto rifles. They would probably still be around today. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. As a result, it has approximately 41% higher muzzle velocity with 27% more impact energy than the parent .32 WSL cartridge. Normal jacketed bullet weight was 180 grains and factory ballistics had it moving at about 1,800 fps. What is the going price of an original box of 351 ammo. I have a 35 wsl and am going to pick up a 351 wsl next week. M44/Carbine; Mini-14 Type; Model 77; RWS Rifles; S Misc Rifles; Saiga Rifles. The same probably goes for the AR-15 when they think of a semi auto police patrol rifle. And Barnes makes a 200-grain TSX bullet designed for this cartridge that, when handloaded to 2850 f.p.s., allows the .350 Rem. spent to get the military issue version of the carbine will be money well spent. At 300 yds., the .358 Norma impacts only 0.96" lower than the .300 Win. loaded with a 180-grain Oryx bullet to the .358 Norma Mag. When we pitted the 30 Carbine vs 5.56, the 5.56 won 7/10 categories and tied in two, thanks to its low recoil and high accuracy capabilities. Right now, I think that the Browning BLR lever-action rifle is the only production gun left on the market in .358 Win. They include both the AccuBond and the Partition 225-grain bullets with a muzzle velocity of 2800 f.p.s. Classified Ad (1000+), Search Full Text of Listings . "the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!". Single trigger 14.25 LOP with Winchester red recoil pad. On some collecting sites, prices range around $100.00 box of 50, but earlier pristine condition boxes and with ammo go much higher. Auction (19) I too have an M1, and also two 1907's - both from the first year of production. .30-.30 caliber In excellent used condition. Both the Legend and the .30-30 are most comfortable in the medium-to-large-game category, but the .30-30 offers a slightly wider array of bullet weights and applications. from a 20 inch rifle barrel, which is lower than any .30-30 load published in the Winchester ammo catalog. First year gun, manufactured in 1939, Pre-WWII. bumping this, I obtained a magazine for the first one shown up top - for a mere $64. The .25 Rem., .30 Rem. Own and shoot both. Mag. Mag., and I think thats the only current production rifle in that cartridge. It was designed to improve the range and stopping power of the M1 carbine. The .358 Win. Just bought the 22 sl. But unfortunately, only rifles made for these cartridges was Winchester, no one else chambered them, how come? ANTIQUE MADE IN 1891. As a rule of thumb, when it comes to hunting, muzzle energy is what many hunters look at when deciding on what caliber of firearm / ammunition to select. It puts down Whitetail deer and wild hogs quite nicely. were to go head to head with the .25-35 Win.,. Spl. Try Buffalo arms in Idaho for brass and bullets for reloading. Neither Winchester cartridge was truly suitable for anything larger than small deer, and that might have been pushing it. Read today's "The Armed Citizen" entry for real stories of law-abiding citizens, past and present, who used their firearms to save lives. That is to say, .30 M1 Carbine bullets travel 2.3 times the speed of a 737 airplane at cruising speed, while .30-30 Winchester bullets travel 2.7 times that same speed. It can be found, and reloading it should not be a problem. Both clock in around 9 foot-pounds of energy, about half as much as a .308 Winchester. Ill bet its been awhile since those cartridges have been seen in a hunting camp. to achieve its potential. Overall, the .30 Carbine is a round that is historically important, but not terribly ballistically relevant to the modern discussion of personal defense weapon ammunition. Mag. This 180-grain load from Federal drops 9.4 inches at 200 yards and 34.1 inches at 300 yards. The .351 is a great urban defense cartridge, but ammo supplies are extremely limited, and so is magazine capacity. Comments have to be approved before showing up, 2023 Foundry Outdoors - All Rights Reserved, Product successfully added to your Shopping Cart, 223 WSSM Winchester Super Short Magnum Ammo, 243 WSSM Winchester Super Short Magnum Ammo, 25 WSSM Winchester Super Short Magnum Ammo, 300 RSAUM Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum Ammo, 7mm RSAUM Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum Ammo, .30 M1 Carbine vs .30-30 Winchester Ammo Comparison - Ballistics Info & Chart. With this matchup, the winner depends on the specific loads being compared. Please click the above links to take a look at all of the .30 M1 Carbine and .30-30 Winchester ammo we have in stock and ready to ship, and let us know any parting thoughts in the comment section below. The .350 Legend goes for $1.15 to $2.30/round and the .30-30 Winchester anywhere from $1.15 to $4.70/round. Save your pennies and hold out for the M1 Carbinethen save your pennies and start stocking away ammo and magazines. A postwar U.S. Army evaluation reported that "[t]here are practically no data bearing on the accuracy of the carbine at ranges in excess of 50 yards. 24 inch barrel. Kahr makes the M1 Carbine but they are priced as high a original which i would hold out for if i was in the market for one . 30 Carbine 22 HRN390562 7 LEE90524 19 LY7738060 17 RCBS09217 22 RED11022 30 Gibbs 1 HRN390541 2 LEE90519 2 LY7738041 3 RCBS09203 1 RED11001 30 Herrett 2 HRN390542 3 LEE90520 6 LY7738045 2 RCBS09202 2 RED11002 . the barrel, receiver. They cant ride the love-it-or-hate-it controversy of the 6.5mm calibers. Shaw rifles 24-inch barrel. was simply a .308 Win. Read on to find out. Even the Standard gas operated semi auto rifle didnt sell well. This new model featured two new cartridges, the .350 Rem. Winchester sold both soft point and FMJ ammunition for the .351 SL cartridge over the years. McPherson. Posted February 22, 2017 in Ammunition, AR-15, Daily News, Guns & Gear, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 123 CommentsTags: .30 carbine, 7.62, 7.62x33, assault rifle, ballistics, carbine, drop, Education, energy, history, M2, performance, personal defense weapon, rifle, second world war, us carbine m1 .30 cal, velocity, world war 2, world war ii, ww2, wwII, Left to right: .351 WSL, .30 M1 Carbine, .45 ACP, 5.7x28mm SS190, 5.56x45mm M193. into the deer woods, and I pine for what could have been. Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351, Re: Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351, Powered by UBB.threads PHP Forum Software 7.7.5. Sellier & Bellot: 1947 fps. Upon firing, the breechblock is delayed in its opening by its weight and spring pressure until the rising chamber pressure overcomes the inertia of the bolt. Hornady Critical Defense: 1990 fps. Nominally they weighed 180 grains, were usually jacketed softpoints and were propelled from the 20-inch barrel of the Model 1907 at about 1,800 fps. Plainfield Machine Corp. made a .30 caliber pistol from 1964 to 1983 named the "Enforcer". Many have complained about the cartridges themselves saying that they were way under powered and useless and only good for squirrels to coyotes, they must be talking about the 22LR. In rifle cartridges, we usually take the safe route and .30-caliber has emerged as the American shooters choice. (For context, Federals highest-BC 6.5 Creedmoor clocks in at .607.). The Model 1907 enjoyed a long production run of over 51 years and Winchester finally stopped manufacturing it in 1958. While the American mainstream wont accept the .35, they are not unloved. I'd go with the carbine if you plan to shoot it much. 26" Barrel. As the winner of two out of three categories, the .30-30 Winchester deserves the overall nod. The first 100,000 cartridges manufactured were headstamped ".30 SL" (for "self-loading"). Mag. SMOOTH PATINA METAL WITH GOOD WOOD AND A NICE BORE. Mag. About 1916 vintage. It arrived with three other cartridges designed to compete with Winchester's popular lever-action lineup. The .358 Win. Most ammunition makers have a 200-grain load, and Remington also has a 150-grain load with a muzzle velocity of 2300 f.p.s. Even the military wouldnt use semi or full auto ( hand held) fearing soldiers would shoot too much ammo. The .351 Winchester fired the same 180 grain bullet as the .35 SL, but at a considerably higher velocity of 1,850 feet per second (1,368 ft-lbs of muzzle energy). 26" Barrel. Check out GunBroker. 80% BLUE, NICE BORE. As of 2017, Hawk bullets still makes .351 jacketed expanding bullets with jackets of appropriate thickness.[7]. The only energy foot/pounds that were calculated were for the Hornady Custom, which had the highest mean velocity. They dont have that coveted NATO designation. Duke's newest prize is a fine-condition Winchester Model 1907 .351 WSL. When Winchester was asked by Ordnance to develop a round for a new echelon weapon to complement the .45 cal 1911 handgun, their engineers fell back to the basic design of these rounds, adapting the .32 WSL into what was called in development the .30 SL, virtually identical to todays .30 Carbine. 80% BLUE. Good information on these rifles. The Legend has more trouble fighting wind and gravity. I think if enough people went online and contacted Winchester and Hornady, and asked them to make up a run of ammo in 351 WSL and 401 WSL in 20 round boxes, perhaps they would make a limited run. WITH BAYONET. That load actually produced 2825 f.p.s. If you had to pick the sexiest cartridges of the last decade, youd run through quite a few before you hit the .270 Winchester or .243 Winchester. Mag.They have almost identical case capacity, but the .358 Norma Mag. The M1 Carbine is VERY reliable, sufficiently accurate for most urban needs, and is feather light. Both of them had Long Tom 94's in 30-30 Winchesters. USOG 60.7K subscribers Subscribe 40K views 4 years ago Join me for a look at another great investment rifle. It has never failed me. The .350 Legend is popular enough to justify continued production but not popular enough that the shelves are bare. If you get a GI M1 carbine (only ones worth considering) then youll have a REAL military weapon. Dear Socialists: I have no money for you. Lyman peep sight Slight fade bluing on receiver- stocks, barrel, butt plate, receiver/lever in beau 100% barrel and bore Wood in great condition Made 1951 30-30 Winchester. Fusion Ammo has a 200-grain with a muzzle velocity of 2800 f.p.s. and the .32 Win. If we compare the .300 Win. We determine a cartridges shootability by considering its cost, availability, and recoil energy. I would like some information if possible on approximate value if in good usable condition. 2 - The lighter bullet of the .30 Carbine made for much lighter ammunition. Heavy, slow, not very accuate, and now days ammo is next to impossible to find. Sadly, I cant find a single major gunmaker chambering this cartridge today. The barrel is a full 22 inches, like it always should have been, but the foolish design with the huge shark fin front sight turned hunters off, and it was dropped.