But the thing about non-binary identity is that you know that youre neither of those. If you have a kid who comes out as non-binary, you get to watch this father actively work from a place of love to learn to love his child again, or in a new way, or something. My job was to show up on set, put on the costume, play the character, and then take off the costume, and leave the character at work. I dont think of Taylor as a hidden gem, but maybe they are. The things that I've had to do medically to my body don't define me. Its called Mirror Fire productions. Sun: Im glad you mentioned that. Taylor also is non-binary, and in a few minutes youll hear about how that character description helped Asia understand and articulate their own gender identity. Although as an actor, Im never judging the character that Im playing, because thats not helpful. You have played female characters in the past, such as Brandy on Orange is the New Black, and any concerns about whether or not that runs the risk of reinforcing a gender binary? Especially just being exposed to online discourse, anybody whos online for a certain period of time starts to have a detector for that type of thing. And I think you can kind of sniff that out. Because whats happening is so ridiculous that you have to be able to laugh at it but in a way that makes you think, not in a way that makes you dismiss whats happening. Sun: Thats so moving to me to hear, that is extraordinary. Representation has always had this weight of the first. And so, again, once somebody else opens that door, the door gets to open for other people. Are you zero waste?Asia Kate Dillon: No! And then what representation would I change? A now confident, quick-witted CEO outsmarted many. Maybe because it feels like not a safe space. Last season, we got to learn a little bit more about Taylors past when Kevin Pollak recurred as your father. The first Black person to do anything is both going to be celebrated and also scorned, because they didnt do it the right way and it wasnt enough for everybody. Im starting to see a few high-profile celebrities come out as non-binary. Dillon: Frankly, if Im allowed to promote myself and the show, I would say, if you havent watched Billions, watch Billions. To some people it feels a little dated, but I think that is really kind of the conversation that were having about the history of non-binary identity. Cardigan by Maison Kitsun / Shirt and pants by Agns B / Beanie by American Apparel. Dillon: Yes, certainly. Episode 24: Asia Kate Dillon Beyond the Binary, Intro music: Jaunty, upbeat chords interspersed with the sound of a DJ scratching a record back and forth on a turntable. Theres a sweet, beautiful song. And it was incredibly freeing and ultimately, I felt like there was nothing to hide behind. "I think it's important to be able to be like, 'Yes, your shoulders are broad, yes your hands are big and your voice is deep and you're really tall and people notice you, and that makes you noticeably trans, but that doesn't make you any less beautiful. And this is laced in very conscious, purposeful ways throughout the entire series. I think about the characters in Danger & Eggs, which was an Amazon series; Craig of the Creek, which has I think one of the highest numbers of non-binary characters outside of Steven Universe, which just blows everybody away because every gem in that is non-binary. Im thinking of John Malkovichs character, who misgenders Taylor and its like, well, that makes sense in that context. My pronouns are they/them. I feel like I can talk to Brian and David about anything, ask them anything. White: Oh my God, this is incredible. Although it has been said that Taylors wardrobe is stereotypically masculine, I dont feel that way, I think its actually neutral. What is my frame of reference? In this weeks episode of Hollywood Remixed, The Hollywood Reporters podcast about inclusion and representation in entertainment, Billions Asia Kate Dillon joins the show to talk about how non-binary representation changes lives starting with their own. In terms of the ongoing conversation around Taylors gender identity over the past four seasons, I would say there has been very little, because that is just one part of what makes up who Taylor is. You kind of feel like you're chasing something you can never attain. In the 1950s, Christine Jorgensen was the first known person to undergo sex reassignment surgery, identifying as a woman some years after her service in World War II. We want it to look hot. "I also ask for patience. When my contract was negotiated, I knew that there was a possibility for nudity. I felt really comfortable and safe this whole time, and that doesnt always happen. And its really this fluid space for this character. Thousands of new, high-quality pictures are added every day. And so now, having the opportunity to talk about it and have it printed is extraordinary for me, and it doesnt get tiring., One particularly notable moment of explanation was when Dillon was a guest on The Ellen DeGeneres Show. Post Malone, Riz Ahmed, Josephine Skriver, and More on the Fly Way to Dress Down This Summer. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter for nonstop inspiration delivered fresh to your feed, every day. And I applaud the Gotham Awards for abolishing their gendered acting categories. Has the German word 'einfhlung' tattooed on the left side of their neck, which translates to 'empathy'. What I can think of as problematic is when non-binary characters are written and Im not saying Ive seen evidence of this but when non-binary characters are written without anyone consulting a non-binary person, whether it be actors they are considering for the role, but frankly it needs to happen before then. But I remember my first introduction to Adventure Time was actually watching a clip of Lumpy Space Princess, who is this deep-voiced, giant, pink, blobby, fluffy creature who has a lot of attitude and just doesnt really take anybodys crap. I got a casting breakdown from my agent. And so theyre actually forced to reckon with their own masculinity simply because Taylor is there. The very first time I buzzed my head I was 21 Id had short hair since I was 14 I just remember it was like 2 in the morning and I just was like, I really want to do it, I want to see what I look like and what my head shape is. When did you start to get recognized as an actor?I started to get recognized when my season of Orange came out. And thats not to say, like, all white men are the same, but because non-binary is this massive umbrella, what that looks like, what that sounds like, how you write that is so distinctively different and specific that I think that there may be, when more roles become available, more opportunities for non-binary actors to get roles and obviously clearly benefiting from all of the work that every other marginalized group has put forth to get these conversations in the rooms that matter. Sun: Its an incredible example of life imitating art. And I realized that once I tried to start learning more about non-binary, its like, Wow, we are so firmly, fundamentally wedded to this idea of this or that, male or female. Thats why today I really wanted to focus on when you are neither this nor that. What kinds of conversations have you had with the showrunners, Brian Koppelman and David Levien, about how they even came to creating Taylor, who quickly became a major character in the universe? They have a mild social media following with more than 150k followers on Instagram and more than 50k followers on Twitter. And it doesnt dictate what my gender identity is. I almost feel like as a cisgender person in other words, somebody who identifies as the gender they were assigned at birth, if Im defining that correctly it has been in some ways easier for me to understand a transgender person who still exists along the gender binary. How did the costuming go?The designer and the producers had a vision and they asked me if I was comfortable. Its an umbrella term, and it describes anybody who may have a gender that doesnt really exclusively fall into male or female cisgender very specifically and who may identify somewhere in between that or beyond that. Anyone can enter either category for any reason. This is something that youve been speaking about for several years. Please subscribe to Hollywood Remixed on the podcast platform of your choice so that you dont miss it. Im also so thankful to my colleague, THR associate editor Abbey White, for coming on as this weeks guest expert to share what non-binary representation has meant to their own identity formation and to teach me about the genres that perhaps surprisingly have done pretty well with gender non-conforming inclusion. If youre pitching a show to an executive and an executive has a very rigid gender binary and doesnt really understand what youre saying, you could just be like, Well, theyre not human, so why would they have that binary? And that is an easier way to get that through and have that conversation. Like, how can I be this thing if people cant see it, if Im not showing it in some way via a physical, medical change? Now, non-binary actor Asia Kate Dillon is up against Keanu Reeves's title character in John Wick 3, but not to worry despite the movie trailers, they don't actually play the bad person. Their role on Billions is the first gender non-binary character shown on American television. So one, theres a shortage of roles and thats something that cant be ignored in the conversation about who gets to play who. I would like to be, though. Do you ever have days where you dont feel like having the conversation? (Laughs.) Its a masterful way of showing a multidimensional, incredibly complex, awesome character that I think many performers would kill to play. Particularly as someone who might not necessarily align with who their child is. I interviewed a voice actor for a piece. I didnt want to take hormones, thats not my journey. You get to see them as a full human being. And also getting more creators who are non-binary. If a white character can do this, then well roll the dice on a character of color. If I was lying on my deathbed and I had kept this secret and never ever did anything about it, I would be lying there saying, 'You just blew your entire life,' 'You never dealt with yourself,' and I don't want that to happen. Gender nonconformity has traditionally been a means of exploring horror narratives, they explain. Their role on Billions is the first gender non-binary character shown on American television. Sun: It is also great to see that spoiler alert when Taylor briefly breaks away and sets up their own rival firm for a while, basically Axe and Wags spent an entire season plotting how to take you down, but at no point did they entertain weaponizing gender identity against you or anything like that. I think these are conversations that mixed-race families have too. A lot of brands are saying theyre going to make gender neutral clothing. What I remember is receiving that script and reading those scenes and crying and thinking, This is exactly right on for Taylor, for Taylors father. It just felt like, Oh, this is a good step. I will offer whatever support I can and continue to strive for a more loving and equal society. Another one that I think about a lot and Ive been thinking about increasingly in the past couple of years is Adventure Time. So thanks for letting me (Laughs.). If you are a white mother and you have a Black daughter, how do you talk to that child about who they are as a Black person in America? And its past time. So it wasnt really a thing that had to get sorted right away. the government, the planet, the race forces her to undergo a conversion therapy of sorts to go back to a they, which is really interesting. What is shown in the story is you dont know that persons gender, and hopefully the lesson is, Dont assume. Dont assume someones gender just because someone is wearing makeup or dressed in historically feminine attire, whatever that means. What is that line? White: Absolutely. And if so, how should they do it over? White: I mean, I wouldnt say it looks like cisgender racial representation at all. Dillon: Thank you so much, Rebecca. And so some folks have gotten the door to be able to play themselves opened sooner. Asia Kate Dillon - Net Worth, Salary. But I watched SNL religiously. Do you feel like were finally starting to see real-world and more grounded representations, where you dont need to Trojan horse it into an allegory of a non-humanoid and say this is an alien, this is a soda cup or a car, but non-binary people can exist in practical reality in seeing these characters in more realistic shows? And I would say, youve encountered them in your real life, you just dont know it. I want to make sure that I get that right.. And I was thinking that Taylor can be held up in many ways as a universal example of that positive representation not just for non-binary identity, but for so many of the characters on Billions, I feel like the writers have done a great job of making them authentically and organically the identity that they have, whether its racial or gender or different ways, but its never the focus of what their storyline or what their character is all about. I can't say I haven't looked in the mirror and said, ''Work, bitch.'. I like schedules so that I can just figure out how Im going to bob and weave through it all. But I also think whats interesting, and I think this circles in about trans representation, is that Hollywood has treated trans people historically like costumes. If I were being misgendered all the time and I didnt have the support of family, friends and co-workers, it would tear me down way more. In animation, because it doesnt have to ascribe to the physical realism that exists in live-action film and TV, you can be super expressive, they say, pointing to Cartoon Networks Adventure Time among other recent examples. Getting to wear drag is super fun. We dont have to confine you in the same way that we always have. Knowledge has changed over time. It's just a feeling. We know that there is a reality in which trans, non-binary, intersex, gender nonconforming people are the targets of hate, bigotry, violence, discrimination, whether its job discrimination, housing discrimination, they have higher rates of bullying and suicide than any other marginalized group. White: Yes, exactly. And I feel like Hollywood treats babies like props anyway. Sun: That is a perfect example. And Dillon has recently taken on a new role. Billions happened to come out after I had just finished filming season 4 of Orange and I just missed the moment. And so that is very special, but yeah, we talk about mostly where Taylor is coming from emotionally and why they are the way they are and why they are behaving the way theyre behaving and doing what theyre doing.